During the Nintendo Treehouse, a comment was made that if you find and visit all the bathrooms in the game something “special” happens and I am SUPER curious to find out what it is.
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Honestly, I have been trying to internally articulate and process what it is about having a cop-centric/pro-cop focused that initially rubbed me the wrong way, and I do not have a great answer or reasoning.
I do think I am personally hung up on the fact that the characters are dressed in riot gear with the word POLICE and that cop blue all over it. If they were called something else, even if it were something super uncreative like, I dunno, “legion” or “enforcers” I feel like I would find that more okay. It’s honestly something about seeing “police” and knowing what police are, and especially what they stand for in America, that is off putting for me.
There is something about the way I approach and engage with games where I gravitate towards material in which there is a slight level of abstraction. I am trying to think of a good way to put it… I think there is a way to do the exact thing that the director is articulating in the interview without having to use the word police. I get the sense that there are good intentions behind this work and still think everything I have read and seen about the relationship between the protagonist and the creatures is interesting and the sort of conflict I am interested in a game but, still, something about having to be not simply a protector of the peace in this cyberpunk setting but a police officer is just a little off putting.
I will add that there is probably supreme irony in the fact that I am have written this poorly articulated mash while my wife sits next to me watching Law & Order.
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In America there really is no good cop media. The police have an all seeing eye and anyone who tries to reign in police behavior is bad. Even shows that see enjoyable like Brooklyn 99 or castle still perpetuate this idea of police being inherently good and beneficial. Bad cops are this rare thing. It is a rare piece of fiction that revolves around cops that shows them as part of this larger system designed to maintain status quo.
In Japan things are different. There isn’t the same history of police being used as a tool of the state to violently oppress already marginalized populations. The overwhelming majority of Japanese officers don’t carry guns. They’re not kitted out for a murder party as part of the days regular business. This isn’t to say that Japanese police are the virtuous heroes Japanese TV makes then out to be (especially since so much of Japanese cop TV is blatantly ripped off of American shows), but there are different assumptions being made with them.
With all police media you have to think about the level of power these people have in society. And in video games you have to think of how you as a player are being made to wield that power. If a game is encouraging violence to get confessions because “we know he is lying” then that is fucked. No matter what fictional setting the game takes place in we are experiencing it in our current world. They are using police because we know what police are today. To say the idea is totally abstract from real world policing would be a lie. Otherwise why use cops at all?
That’s not to say that this is going to be bad. It is just something to think about. I’m someone who doesn’t really watch cop movies or TV shows. That’s not a power fantasy I have, but if other people are into it then so be it.
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Like all things, it’s a personal line type of thing. I think as leftists, we all understand acab, and the reasons why, and like all problematic media, have to decide what goes across our personal line. For example, my roommate loves Brooklyn 99, and though you have to remind yourself about all the problematic aspects, I find inoffensive enough to sit in the room and watch it with him and even laugh at some of the jokes. My other friend loves NCIS and I wouldn’t even attempt to sit in and watch it, I don’t like that stuff at all. Where will Astral Chain fall on that list? I think it’s prudent to wait and see personally, but I’m not going to fault anyone here for taking the plunge.
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While there is room for nuance regarding discussion of the police, I gotta say… ACAB isn’t just an expression of dismissal. It IS used that way far too often, but it still rings true about the institution of policing. You may have had good experiences here and there with individual state actors, but that doesn’t mean they don’t work for and uphold ideas that are socially very harmful.
If it matters to this discussion at all… I have a masters degree in criminology and criminal justice. I have spent a lot of time examining these systems and the people that work within them. Even talking to and working with some of them on class assignments out of necessity. They are people, for sure. I don’t find it helpful to dehumanize or demonize cops as much as many leftists seem to, but it’s important we make the distinction between individuals and the institutions they work for.
I love Brooklyn 99, some of my favorite books have cops as protagonists. I’m not opposed to media that uses them in that way. I’m REALLY excited about this game. That doesn’t stop me from wanting significant reform or even, as I have stated in other threads on this very forum, abolition.
Many of the roles the police fill that don’t involve the use of state sanctioned violence could easily be filled by other, more qualified workers, and I will beat that drum until I die.
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A games creative being upfront about the baseline assumptions baked into their work, while not at all a justification for the mistakes they’ve made, at least allows us as an audience to directly engage with that messaging instead of taking stabs in the dark about what is the intentionality of the text w/r/t most AAA games.
The dishonesty of the latter goes beyond just dancing around the subject matter, it serves to frame attempts toward critical analysis of their cultural messaging as politically polarized audience projection.
It’s easier to set your expectations when the game is flat-out saying “we think cops are Good and Cool”.
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My point is that creative works speak for themselves in spite of what the creator would like them to say. We don’t know what the game is flat-out saying yet. It isn’t out!
Look, I don’t agree with my post being flagged, but I will delete it. I was not trying to upset anyone. I was trying to illuminate how much mental energy is spent attempting to prove that a work will suck, or fail, or be bad, or be harmful before we know absolutely anything about the actual work. We know what people involved in the creative process say, and we may guess at what that might mean about what the work may or may not end up saying for itself, but we should know by now that the pre-release cycle is absolutely loaded with fraught, pandering, and sometimes just flat-out inaccurate messaging that has nothing to do with the finished work. This person says that, then some other person at the same company walks it back, then the company itself says a third thing, then some footage comes out that proves all of that is wrong - and all the while, for months, we’re trying to make a declarative, conclusive statement about something that is being purposefully obfuscated from us.
At this point, I believe it is a mistake to try and guess what a game will do or say based on what someone says in an interview. They are wrong all the fucking time. Yet here we are, grinding our gears over a literally imagined version of a game. And then we jump down each other’s throats for keeping our hopes up, or thinking the gameplay still looks good, or otherwise ‘ignoring’ what everyone else is screaming about that will surely make enjoying the game ethically impossible, and you a heartless shithead for liking it. It’s fucked up.
We should feel free to criticize messaging, or people, but it’s like, WILD to try and criticize the work already.
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I agree with what you’ve said in your edit on this post. Something that has been increasingly bothering me lately is how quick to judge and dismiss a game before anyone has even played it this community can be.
We all talk a big game about nuanced discussion but this behavior comes across as reactionary to me. That’s not to say there aren’t instances where immediate reactions aren’t relevant (I’m looking at you, Cyberpunk 2077), but I sure wish it wasn’t the norm.
What next? Are we going to start dismissing books out of hand because the summary on the jacket doesn’t indicate the book itself will have any depth?
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i think there’s a point where media that eg likes cops isn’t just a personal problem anymore.
the existence of cyberpunk 2077, for example, hurts trans people and cdpr’s done nothing thus far towards changing that.
for this game, at least for me, it’s murky. that particular excerpt from the interview is troubling, to say the least. and that lady cop in the trailer sure did forcibly mind-meld with a sentient being and put a literal chain around their neck… i like the idea of playing a character in multiple bodies, but not like this. does she realize she and by extension the whole force did a bad thing, even if the chimera end up being thoroughly terrible? she has a line near the end that makes me think it might go this way, but we don’t know for sure yet.
(this is the trailer i’m looking at, for context)
on the other hand, character action isn’t the domain of real life police. it doesn’t seem like we know anything about their everyday duties (or methods?), except that they apparently think enslaving your enemies is totally fine. we also don’t know if the game thinks enslaving your enemies is totally fine.
so i know enough to be uncomfortable and possibly make a decision for myself, but not enough to feel certain of whether astral chain is outright hostile and harmful. i’m skeptical it can materially change the way people view the police as an institution - not only because of how far removed from reality it seems thus far, but it’s only a single work, for a niche audience, in the context of a culture where the legal system knows about crime drama.
when it’s so murky, my thought is… wear thy sword as long as thee can. i won’t begrudge problematic faves as long as people recognize the faults, but if i’m asking myself questions like these, i’m halfway out the door already.
this is platinum, though, so i’m probably going to be standing in this particular doorway for awhile.
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Reading through this thread, I’m curious about how other people here think of the distinction between latent and overt connections to the real world.
Specifically, I enjoyed Mass Effect 1 and 2* but I really didn’t like how that series has you playing as a supercop (even before I learned ACAB) but also that it’s constantly leaning on the idea that the government is a joke that cannot make decisions. Only individual heroic actors like Shepherd can really get anything done.
I don’t think the games wanted to say that, but those are absolutely latent messages they conveyed.
With Astral Chain, it’s overtly showing cops and you are a cop protagonist apparently because that’s just a person of virtue. This is certainly a red flag to be aware of for me (as is the controlling of other sentient beings), but I don’t really know what the game is yet? I’m primed to be aware and critical of the messages this game puts out but it doesn’t feel like it’s already compromised (unlike Cyberpunk 2077).
I have some detachment from things because I’m privileged, and the cops in my country don’t get to carry guns just because. So I wouldn’t be surprised if the existence of cops in this game is just more affecting for other people, but I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop before I can learn whether the underlying politics in this game are bad or not.
(* I barely played 3 so I can’t speak to it)
Shephard is 100% bad cop. Even as a paragon she’s a dick. It’s the one thing I dislike most, which is the ends justifies the means version of justice. And how any politician who is like “Maybe don’t murder everyone on your path to glory” is bad. But I still have a soft spot for bioeware games even though I kinda hate all of them. I would’ve forgiven all of those games’ flaws if they had a BFF option where me and Legion and Tali could’ve posted up in an engine bay being weird about ships and machines.
So the thing about all cops being bad is that, for me being black, I cannot relax in the presence of any police. So even with ‘good cops’ if they are having a bad day or I look like someone that is sleeping with their mom or whatever they might just shoot me and all of society will rush for reasons why it is deserved. It’s not that any particular cop might do something, it is that they are all allowed to do whatever they want. And then cop media reinforces their ability to do whatever they want.
Even with good shows like the Wire, the police are almost always dealing with criminals. We are missing out on the aspect of policing where a non criminal is minding their own business and is in a life or death situation because the police have shown up. Like say, maybe a 13 year old girl getting punched in the face for no reason? You just cannot know which police are going to be the ones who want to kill you. And that isn’t something that is really addressed. Because in all of these shows the police are still dealing with people the audience knows are either criminals or people engaging in activities that border on crime. There aren’t the story lines about cops beating homeless people to within an inch of their life for fun and getting away with it then getting awards from the police union for being awesome. As long as the thin blue line exist, as long as blue lives matter is a thing then no police in America can be trusted. There cannot be a good officer. No amount of playing basketball with black kids will change this.
This game is being made outside of that context so it’s not necessarily awful, but this game is being released in America and it’s good to at least think about the difference in perception.
I will play astral chain when it’s $20 in a year. I hope a lot of people buy it. I love these AA studios. I’m sad there are so few of them left.
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I really appreciate all the insights in this thread so far. I’d like to offer my critique on Brooklyn 99 as cop media, as it seems to have come up in this thread a lot. Brooklynn 99 is a funny comedy that generally does a pretty good job of offering diversity and representation, not only in casting, but also in the stories. Rosa coming out as bi was very genuine and touching, and the show treats most characters with respect.
However, it’s not perfect. One example of this has stuck with me, and I’d like to share it here. Jake, the main character, arrests a former foe for a crime that he’s not sure if he committed. Obviously his captain is frustrated, and they have 48 hours to get the detained man to confess to the crime. They hold him for nearly two days trying to get him to confess. Eventually they find out that he did the crime, and it all ends well for the B99 crew. the problem is that Jake arrested this man without pretense, and it all worked out in the end. That’s how the law works. Cops (in America) can do whatever they want and it always works out. There are 0 consequences.
I’m not saying people can’t enjoy Brooklyn 99, but it’s important to be critical of cop media. Maybe Astral Chain will be good, maybe it won’t, but until I hear otherwise I’m going to be wary of it.
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cop with an “x-baton” that turns into a gun, and a mindslaved enemy combatant… cant wait for my image or opinion of the police to change as a result of playing the game…
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The fact that this comment is getting flagged is very strange to me, because I don’t understand why it would qualify for such a thing. There is nothing wrong with using “cop story” as a genre, any more than there is using “mecha pilots who are teens” or “doctors workin’ at the hospital and prolly who fuck”. Genres are the trappings of story but not the story itself. The problems of real life policing are in fact frequently the topic of the best kinds of media about cops!
The whole pre-release hype cycle thing reminds me of something Austin said recently on the pod about how “the first version of the game you play is when you hear about the game.” Sometimes on The Discourse it seems like not only are folks playing the game as soon as they’re hearing about it, but they’re already writing viral Medium critique posts about it and it’s just… a lot
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Hey folks,
The Waypoint forums thrive on discussion and often deal with complicated, weighty, and crucial issues. That said, while many of these issues are important and their resultant threads have insightful discussion, they are also prone to losing focus or becoming heated.
The relationship between marginalized communities and the police is a very complicated subject and needs to be treated as such. Making blanket statements that disregard or minimize the harm that law enforcement do to these communities is not conductive to discussing the subject in good faith. We ask that when you engage in discussions on complicated topics such as these, you keep the rules of the forum in mind; particularly Goal D and Rule 3.
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People have pointed out that police culture in America and Japan is different, but I feel like it’s important to lay it out a little more plainly:
I’m still not, like, super thrilled by the dev’s response, but I’m far more comfortable playing this than any game that puts you in the shoes of a “realistic” American soldier and tells you that you’re a good guy.
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So I’ve seen the talking point in a number of threads that people are just writing games off without playing them and I think . . .I don’t like the tenor of that discussion. I see this as a ting that happens with online discussions a lot, where talks go from being about specific instances to more far spread generalizations and the initial talking point is lost.
There are very few people writing off Cyberpunk. I’m not sure anyone is writing off Astral Chain. There are some people dubious or curious about the nature of policing in this game and how that is portrayed. This has become a larger discussion on policing in video games and media, but I don’t see it as a discussion of cancelling astral chain based on the first thing we saw.
The same goes for Cyberpunk. There are a small number of people who are very wary of CD project red because of their history of behavior. They have seen something indicative of negligence at best and intentionally harmful at worst and object to it and want CDPR to provide meaningful responses.
Austin is correct about media where we first experience the media in our heads before ever interacting with it. But I think it is a leap to say that someone deciding not to play Cyberpunk because they’ve really had enough of CDPR as a company and what they’ve shown at E3 did not fill them with hope are being too short sighted. If you’re a member of a marginalized group and the only time you’ve appeared in a game’s marketing is as a joke you might not be inclined to wait. And honestly, how many times has a creator shown something messed up and said “wait for the whole story” and that been worth it? I really can’t think of one.
With Astral Chain, there are some legitimate questions to be brought up based on what was shown. There are people who are out on Pokémon as a concept. They find the premise to be questionable at best. When sword and shield is announced I expect them to ask questions like “hey, is this game still about enslaving wild animals and making them fight for your entertainment?” and the developers will say “yeah, that’s about it” and that person won’t play the game. With Astral chain someone might look at this and say “hey, it looks like you’re playing a cop who has the ability to conscript sentient lifeforms into your service? Is that it?” and the answer they receive will dictate their desire to play the game. I think it would be discourteous to say that this hypothetical person cannot post this opinion online because they are judging the game before release.
When you show something in preview you are giving the audience something to chew on and think about. You cannot control how they view what you show them, but you can control what you show them. We were shown a future urban fantasy cop game and some people had questions. I think that’s okay. I think we have to be careful of deeming a conversation non helpful because it has grown larger in scope. It starts to border on strawnmanning people. Or it minimizes the original conversation in favor of finding an easier target to attack. “look how silly these people are for writing off an entire game based on one little image” is an easy rallying cry. That sounds silly out of context. But the context of the original discussion is quite a different thing.
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You’re absolutely right here. I know I was one of the people who was talking about these kind of pre-release judgements. I don’t want anyone to think that I’m trying to control how they form or express their opinions of these games.
I think where I was coming from, in part, was a defensive place because I’ve been excited for both this game and (regrettably) Cyberpunk 2077. To add to the books analogy I used before… sometimes you can judge a book by its cover. Sometimes you know in advance that the author is a bad person.
But I hadn’t considered until you brought it up that a game can be dismissed on the face of it simply because an element is inherently objectionable to a person. Like with your Pokémon example. It was short sighted of me.
I do still think looking at a whole work is more useful than examining a single component of it, but then that’s the thing with games… they’re assembled and consumed differently than other media. So maybe I need to rethink that position. Not everyone is going to want or need to play an entire game to be critical of it.
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This game makes me think of Silent Mobius, which is an OVA with overt sexual undertones about a girl becoming a woman through made contact with a matriarchal police dealing with supernatural creatures in a cyberpunk, Neo tokyo setting.
It’s all visual, all style and kinda bombastick. It’s demons against police light-force of something christian-like, but is it black and white for being so ?
I wouldn’t give much importance to the word of the director though. Japanese rarely give clue to the intricacy of their work in interview and often their answer are formulaic or elusive.
Things have to be experienced so wait and see. Personnaly, I enjoy to gaze at the world through another culture’s lense and the astute ways it can spin something on its head, or simply show it to me through a different angle. Makes for a relaxing charm.
All in all the game looks really cool. And a hint I gathered from the trailer is that there might be analogy between this beast we keep chained to do our biding and ourselves, “chained to destiny”.
I agree with everything @Blacksentai says and I’ll add that when I was asking about what this game was doing with this subject matter I was genuinely curious as to what the intent was, I wasn’t taking issue with the subject matter. There is a place for big schlocky futuristic super-cop media, and sometimes I am into it.
Police throwing people in chains is just such loaded imagery that I wanted to know going in if they were embracing it, subverting it or if it was just a way to contextualize a cool game mechanic they had. From the Polygon interview it seems like it’s mainly the last one? In Japan this imagery isn’t charged (according to the director, I know nothing about Japanese law enforcement) so they chose an easy shorthand. Cops and robbers makes sense of their leash game.
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