Episode 507 - Gloomwood Asks “What if Thief Had Guns?”

Content Warning for discussion of gross bodily fluids from approximately 1:49:11 to 2:15:43

This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://shows.acast.com/vicegamingsnewpodcast/episodes/episode-507-gloomwood-asks-what-if-thief-had-guns

Patrick is right, stealth games are boring. Every time I try to play Thief I adore the aesthetic and find the gameplay incredibly dull.

More than that I’ve always felt that one of the weakest aspects of immersive sims is that they often require the player to do the very unimmersive act of constantly saving and reloading in order to get the perfect run. This was a huge issue I had with Dishonored. The game give you a bunch of tools to keep going after you break stealth, but then admonishes you at the end of levels for being seen or stabbing too many cops.


It also, for me, is strongly inhibitory of actually playing the game - specifically in Thief 2, I think I froze in the second level (“Shipping… and Receiving”) at the very start, and never actually managed to decide to actually do the level because the whole “not wanting to break stealth” thing was so strong for me.

This is part of what made me stop playing MGSV. Why play a game that gives you a lot of lethal options if you’re expected to use non lethal stealth so you get the good grade/ending.


I was more tolerant of it in MGSV, both because the story was so inconsequential and I was used to getting bad grades in MGS games.

Ah, you see, MGS is a “tactical espionage action” game, so the “ghost” run – pacifist or not – is clearly just a challenge mode. Whereas Thief is a “stealth” game, and so the ghost run is clearly the correct one and going loud is simply not to be done.

Dishonoured 1+2 are two of my all time favourite games but they are rightly criticized for the way they handled this. If you read guides for the game, it turns out the chaos system is pretty forgiving. You can get away with killing a lot of stuff and still end up low chaos.

But: the game doesn’t do a good job AT ALL of telling you how this is going. On one hand, sure, your character probably can’t know how this is going either, so as a sim, keeping that quiet makes sense from that perspective. BUT, between that and the achievements available, almost everybody overcompensated and save scummed the game to death (myself included). I do kind of like that obsessively repeating small sections until they go perfectly, so it didn’t ruin the game, but it also meant I wasn’t engaging with all of the systems the game had to offer.

I’ve since gone back and played the game on a lower difficulty with a “no reloads unless I die, kill stuff if you need to survive” policy, and honestly, it’s a lot more fun that way. And I still got the low chaos ending.


i wanted to come here to talk about one of my favorite “cozy spaces” or however they called it, in a game: the town in Ashen. Ashen takes place in such a grey world, i really enjoyed the aspect of the town building up around you as the game progressed. Reminded me a lot of the Dark Cloud games.


I’m jealous of how much range Renata is capable of doing. That cockney thug voice was perfect.

This is how I played both games and had a great time. But just had to deal with each level ending with the game saying “hey you know all that cool shit you did when the guards caught you? Don’t do that, load a previous save instead.”

I find it strange that immersive sims fill their games with versatile powers and complex interactions and then make the player’s most powerful ability the f9 key. Just make time reversal a mechanic, that would be so much more immersive.

Shoot, now I want them to remake Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time as an immersive sim.


Super Mario 64 DS played fine. And Luigi’s addition broke the game and it ruled.

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You’re right, that score screen is bad, misleading, and convinces people to play the game in a very weird way. The game is at odds with itself: all the tutorial tips are like “roll with it, it’s cool” and then bam “Look at all the bad murder you did, you bad person”.

It would have been far more interesting if it just revealed how far along the chaos meter you were, and otherwise didn’t judge, because as far as the ending is concerned: that’s all its doing.

I think an Imsim with SoT’s (Or even the PoP reboot)'s lightness around just rewinding and trying something a little differently is exactly what the genre needs. Good imsims lean into the playfulness of messing with their systems.


Star Wars Darkforces waypoint 101?


Just want to confirm hardcore is still around and kicks ass! If the Columbus that Patrick mentioned is Columbus, Ohio there is? was? As of maybe 5 years ago? a Papa John’s that hosted shows in their basement.

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I believe it was a Donato’s and they are still hosting shows to the best of my knowledge.


You’re right!! Super glad to hear that haha

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