Let's Spoil the Hell out of Avengers: Endgame

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When Austin and Rob weren’t looking, Patrick, Natalie, and Cado pulled off their own time time heist, smuggling themselves into the podcast room to spend nearly three hours talking about the epic conclusion to Marvel’s Infinity Saga, Avengers: Endgame. And because we couldn’t help ourselves, we also had to discuss the latest Game of Thrones episode, “The Long Night.” Oh, and beware: the night is dark (too dark, honestly!) and full of spoilers!!!

This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article/evyx8k/lets-spoil-the-hell-out-of-avengers-endgame
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GoT spoilers start at 113 min or 1 hour 53, but when do they end…?

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It think that’s the 2 things this pod talks about, avengers and GoT, so the latter half is just GoT spoilers.

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Aight cool, thanks :+1:t2:

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Are the endgame spoilers just mixed in? Or can I just jump to the GoT talk and be cool.

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From the pod description it seemed like they were interspersed throughout, but I’m not 100% sure on that because I haven’t listened in full.

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Currently listening to the GOT part right now. There are Endgame spoilers in it as they occasionally compare and contrast the two.

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Not listening yet but I want to chime in and say this episode title is going to make for a good gamejam.

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So, I’m nervous about being the first person to engage with the content (and thus spoil too much), so I’ll phrase this very generally:

In both this podcast, and in the spoiler thread here in Waypoint, I’m interested by how deeply emotionally engaged people got with a lot of Avengers: Endgame. I… really mostly didn’t… and I am interested in what the difference is between people who did and didn’t - is it audience-related? It can’t be “amount of MCU movies absorbed”, because I’ve seen basically everything except Homecoming and Black Panther…

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I think there’s a lot of factors, ranging from who you are as a person and how you engage with media to how much you relate to or like given characters. I really resonated with Thor’s arc in this movie (which I know lots of people have problems with) and while I liked other arcs nothing touched me in the same way. I don’t think you have to be deeply emotionally engaged to like the movie, or something.

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Avengers Endgame spoiler chat:

I listened to the beginning of it and the first major issue they talk about is “Fat Thor”.

I had actually sent them an email about it but to summarize my feelings on it, as a rotund individual myself, I did not feel offended by the fact that he was “fat” or that he was being represented as “shlubby” and lazy. (I did think they overdid it on the whole Lebowski schtick, though.)

My problem with it was more that clearly Thor had turned to alcohol and video games to deal with his depression over the aftermath of his killing Thanos having no effect on reality and that they dealt with it fairly poorly. Honestly, this is something that happened to me after some major trauma in my life and I don’t talk about it much, but it took therapy, conversations with friends, and TIME for me to get through it. So even though some of it was definitely offensive, this was a representation of what can happen to someone deeply in depression, honestly.

That said, I would have preferred less Lebowski schtick and more Thor having some brief but serious interventions from his friends. I would have preferred scenes of, say, Hulk and Cap and Valkyrie confronting him about his behavior and that he needs to deal with his depression in a healthier way and to help him do so.

The scene where Rocket finally confronts him to get it together and slaps him was honestly good, I thought. The fact that he finally gets over it enough to fight back and be a badass at the end was good. The fact that he was still “Fat Thor” while he was kicking Thanos’ ass was good.

So yeah, I didn’t think they handled it particularly well, but I also didn’t think the problem (for me at least) was the fat shaming–it was the fairly poor way they represented depression.

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Oh, I didn’t dislike the movie - I just wasn’t moved to tears at any point during it. (Even the scene which directly involves the kind of things which normally make me cry in movies, didn’t.)
Which is why I wonder if it’s also audience related - the Thor arc which we’re talking about - which, theoretically, I would have been really moved by too, was basically spoiled by the audience basically just finding every scene with him in funny, regardless of if Hemsworth was playing it for pure comedy, or more sadness.

[Edited to respond to @DrM2theJ ] - All of the spoiled stuff here, I agree with. And it seems particularly odd that an MCU movie can’t do that, given that Iron Man 3 is literally built partly on Tony Stark going through his own PTSD-related issues, and is played with a mix of comedy and actual sensitivity - he’s crippled by panic attacks at several points, for example.

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I was nearly teary at one point withi his mom but yeah I did not cry during this film, I didn’t think you disliked it either. My theater was also pretty participatory, and it was mostly appropriate except for one guy who was too hype. He cheered at like, standard action moments fairly often, and also booed when Starlord was on screen. I sort of wonder if audience reactions hinder some of Thor’s stuff, taking some of the emotional weight out of it because a crowded theater just laughs. Hmmmmm

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Maybe yeah. I mean, I thought the one time Tony called Thor “Lebowski” was funny but then they just kind of kept going with it in an out-of-hand way (like when he’s rambling in front of everyone during the planning) and honestly not many people in my theater thought it was funny.

Actually, it’s a good point that Iron Man 3 had Tony going through PTSD as well, and the scene where Tony calls Thor “Lebowski” could have led to a man-to-man talk between Tony and Thor, especially considering the two of them are the core Avengers members I’d say are the least friendly with each other. Missed opportunities all over the place when it came to how they dealt with the Thor stuff, I felt like. But I will again emphasize that I am glad they didn’t have him suddenly muscle up and slim down magically for the final battle and instead had him get into his gear, keep the beard, etc… he’s clearly not over the PTSD or depression, but getting a win by fighting probably didn’t hurt.

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I cried at so many points during this movie. Basically anything that was meant to be heartfelt really got to me. I’ve seen every single one of these in theaters, and I think they really wrapped it up nice. I agree that if they finished here, I would be fine. I am also excited going forward, and think they can really do some new and weird stuff with a whole different bunch of characters.
Also, they’re doing a WandaVision TV show on Disney+. My thoughts on that is that, at the end of Infinity War, Shuri is downloading Vision on a Wakandan computer, so I’m expecting they’ll bring him back. Also, I am wondering if they’ll do a reverse House of M, with Wanda bringing mutants to ththe MCU (I know I didn’t invent this theory, but i just wanted to say it!).

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Thor 2 really gets a bad rap, and I’m not sure why. Sure it wasn’t an amazing movie, but none of them were at that point. It’s about the same level of quality as pretty much everything up until Cap 2. Way better than Thor 1, that’s for sure. Also, what’s this Patrick was saying about nothing “happened” in it? It introduced the concept of the infinity stones! That’s more than most of the other stand alones can say.

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I really don’t get the fat shaming with Thor. As a gentleman who has struggled with my weight for most of my life - I was overweight as a kid - lost it through puberty - put it on again when I started living alone - having a harder time keeping it bay as I get into my 30s. I was bullied for it as a kid, demonic gym teachers forced me to do pressups in the mud whilst being heckled by the whole rugby team, even had strangers in cars stopping to hurl insults at me which does a number to your confidence, let me tell you - which has taken years to build back. That was fat shaming and nothing like that happens within the movie.

Not that I want to pass off any of these important criticsms that affect society at large. Part of what got me out of a rut was realising I had a problem that needed fixing. It took time, takes time, but I generally am in a better place mentally as a result of exercise. I do play a lot of video games and have often wondered whether this is related to it all. But I do try and get regular exercise every day (beat sabre and swimming hey oh).

I thought the depiction of Thor was well done, as someone who is suffering greatly affected by his own headstrong actions (chopping the head of Thanos). I think Alcoholism and PTSD are bigger issues that define Thor rather than a slightly chunkier version of the character.

What I appreciate most about everything is that Marvel even with the second part of this film find a new dimension to place each character. Captain America less so as he is more of a constant, always on, optimistic even in the grave situations (the remark about seeing Whales). Stark moved on having started a family but still restless as he has always been. Then you have Hulk, legitimately one of my favourite things about the movie, finding a way to exist as both Banner and the Hulk. I think together with Ragnorak, Infinity War and Endgame they provide a really cool arc for Banner as Hulk as a character. The film doesn’t just pick up after Infinity War and go straight into ‘the plan’ it takes the time to wallow, both in the immediate ‘avenging’ of the 50% lost and the 5 year interim before the plot picks up.

Thor as a character has always been headstrong and he always becomes anchored by being in a team. I think Ragnarok dealt with this, with him building a new team. When there is no more Avenging to be done, Thor is dealing with PTSD - I think the bit when they mention Thanos and Hemsworth goes ‘don’t mention his name’ in a really small voice is the most evident that he has yet to properly come to grips with. Thor has always been headstrong on his own. I genuinely liked that as a result of his headstrong ways, beheading Thanos so flippantly generally didn’t acheive jack shit and did more harm to him personally than good.

Also, the only time I was moved to tears in Endgame was when Ant Man came back and saw his daughter all grown up. I don’t exactly know why, Ant Man isn’t my favourite character (but he does add so much to Endgame) the movies aren’t among my favourite of the Marvel movies but I think the thing you got from those movies is that Ant Man loves his daughter and would do anything for her.

Ah… I was so meh on Infinity War but I came out of Endgame positively brimming.

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I was thinking about this at the time, and I think Thor 2 gets a bad rap because it wastes some potential, rather than because it’s really awful. (Speaking for myself, GotG2 is at least as uneven as Thor 2, and people seem to like it a lot more, so it can’t just be, as you say, that Thor 2 is the least amazing movie. And there’s definitely risible elements in things like Captain America - those Hydra two-armed-salutes! - for example.)

Thor’s movies have been uneven in tone and design, and Thor 2 made some missteps (wasting Christopher Eccleston by making him speak Dark Elf for most of the film, and using prosthetics that hindered his acting, for example), but also was just weirdly tonally off - it’s very slow moving in places, and has some utterly cringeworthy attempts to pursue the “magic and science are one” thing from Thor by having Jane have a technobabble-off with Asgardian medical people (which is particularly sore-thumb-like now that we know that there actually is Magic in the MCU), as well as the bizarre way in which it apparently tries to have Asgardian military forces have absolutely no ranged weapons. It also has a completely nonsensical end sequence which really doesn’t pay off for anyone, where only the comedy bits really work (Thor taking the Tube back into action).

But, no, it’s not the worst Marvel Cinematic Universe movie…

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Thor 2 gets a deserved bad rap because they stupidly cut out like, the villain’s ENTIRE story, I’m gonna say the end result is the MCU’s worst villain easily next to Mads in Dr. Strange.

Thor 2 was still fun though, it was fine. And I have to disagree with anyone saying it’s the worst MCU flick in a world where Iron Man 2 and Age of Ultron exist.

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I think “having actually interesting villains” was a thing which the MCU in general took a while to get right. It’s particularly noticeable that Malekith is awful (and a waste of Chris Eccleston) because Thor’s version of Loki was one of the better villains in Phase 1, so the contrast is bigger.

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