Okay, Fine, Let's Talk About Logan Paul (And Dr DisRespect)


Austin, Danika, Patrick and Danielle discuss a whole slew of interconnected stream celebrity issues, first, looking at Twitch and Mixer's new rules. We also look into the curious cases of Dr DisRespect and Logan Paul.

This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article/pamggz/okay-fine-lets-talk-about-logan-paul-and-dr-disrespect


Man, sure seems like the Trending Gamer award should be called the Milkshake Duck award.


Im only a few minutes in but the audio in this episode sounds great,


Hell yeah! We’ve started editing them in house, so thank @danielle and @NatalieWatson for this one!


I assume(?) you guys know, but this is at least the 2nd episode in a row where “we should take a quick break, we’ll be right back” isn’t actually followed by a break. I’m assuming ads should go in there?

Loved the episode as always, though. Keep on keepin’ on.


Thanks Danielle and Natalie!


Hey Ravenlock!

VICE uses Acast, which supplies “programatic ads” instead of traditional podcast ad reads. That means that based on location, listening habits, interests, etc., you may or may not get an ad (or that you and another person could TOTALLY get different ads!)

It’s honestly really weird, and as a show runner, it’s strange to know that some of our listeners get ads and others don’t, and not to have the direct control over which ads go where. But it also seems to be the direction the wind is blowing, so here we are.


Patrick was calling for a good pop album and I think this Rina Sawayama album is a good one:

Also I know lots of people didn’t want you to talk about these fools, but I appreciated it, because I don’t follow these kinds of news and you did contextualise it in an actually interesting dicussion about more than just assholes be bad weekly.


This podcast had me nodding ALOT throughout, but also feeling pretty crappy about the world as a whole for some reason. Recent events [and the amount of coverage they garner] including the former pro fornite player’s removal after stating they’d goad someone into committing suicide if asked about it [whilst on stream] make me less than hopeful given the success many have for promoting this behaviour.

This may well be a tangent but with twitch’s harassment guidelines now extending out from twitch itself and given the majority culture there do you think podcasts like this would be considered “alternate media” and if ppl like PL or DD could report waypoint for it? Although nonsensical at first the tin foil hat side of my brain makes me worried the new system could lead to a “don’t talk about it” culture around these ppl for fear of losing their streaming abilities on twitch.

Sorry if totally off base and love the work you do here <3

[edit: I 100% encourage and support twitch creating more features to reign in this kind of behaviour and harassment but Austin’s comments hit the nail on the head regarding their ambiguity and use of “common sense” terminology and wonder if they could be weaponized in the future]


My favorite part about milkshake duck is the guy who came up with it turned out to be a transphobe who retweeted Jesse Signal who made a tweet defending him, seemingly unaware of why Jesse Singal actually was and how he had just made things even worse for himself.


Logan Paul and his ilk are the high school bullies with a posse who figured out a way to monetize their immaturity rather than being compelled or forced to grow up in the way most of us were.


Except that most of the reasons all of these award winners “trend” usually has to do with their volatile and pretty well known shittiness well before the award. (See: Total Biscuit)


Good conversation in this episode.

But boy, I sure would be happy if I never had to hear the names “Dr. Disrespect” or “Logan Paul” ever again. I would much rather be listening to hour-long discussions about marginalized twitch streamers, or how we can fight back against Youtube’s bullshit demonetization of queer folks. I wish that stuff could be the main focus instead of off-hand comments.
That’s not meant to be a critique of the podcast, I guess it’s more a critique of the shitty culture we live in that makes it necessary to talk about this garbage. :disappointed:

Also, here’s a link to that mixer code of conduct page that was discussed. Despite Danielle’s laughter at a certain diagram, I was very impressed by the clear terms they use and the rules they set out. Of course, we’ll see how well they actually enforce and stick to those rules.


I was originally going to send this in for the Question Bucket but it’s not really a question, more a comment, so I thought I’d put it here in the hopes that someone from Waypoint finds it helpful:

Great episode, thanks for that. It usually feels overwhelming trying to find streamers who aren’t trying to fit the Dr DisRespect or Logan Paul mold, but fortunately it can happen.

I was doing research on this topic for my own tiny podcast when I stumbled across a Mixer stream called YouAreNotAlone (YANA) in the ‘Web Shows’ category. It turned out to be two young women doing a co-stream (a very nice Mixer feature BTW) talking about mental health, depression and suicide prevention and their own personal experiences. This was their first stream, created as a place to help people struggling with those issues, and to provide support, comradeship and the connections to suicide prevention hotlines.

It was one of the most inspiring and positive things I’ve ever seen online. I had to leave soon after they started but just in the first few minutes their viewership jumped from 6 to 40 as I and others started hosting them. Small numbers, yes, but when you’re talking about suicide prevention, even one is enough.

Most of the time it feels like we’re buried under a mountain of money-shaped garbage, but as I thought more about it, I realized it was entirely possible that through through their efforts and care, those two young women could very well have saved someone’s life that night.

The juvenile trash that falls out of Dr DisRespect’s mouth to be eagerly lapped up by his man-child horde is a demoralizing reflection of where we are as a society, but it’s not the totality. We may be fighting a Long Defeat, but people like the women of the YouAreNotAlone stream prove that the fight is still worth it.

If you want to check out YouAreNotAlone or get in touch with them, here is their Mixer channel:



Hey Ravenlock!

VICE uses Acast, which supplies “programatic ads” instead of traditional podcast ad reads. That means that based on location, listening habits, interests, etc., you may or may not get an ad (or that you and another person could TOTALLY get different ads!)

Hunh. Well, that’s very weird. But I’m glad to know a thing isn’t broken, and I guess it’s maybe satisfying that it doesn’t “know” me well enough (yet) to advertise to me?

Thanks for the reply and explanation!


The timing of this episode was perfect. I run a very small YouTube channel where I attempt to analyze the media I love in a thoughtful and logical way, and I try to encourage a dialogue with viewers after each video. I’m not trying to prop myself up here, or get views, I just want you to know where I’m coming from.

After listening to this episode of Waypoint, I logged in to my YouTube account and found that a video I made a few months ago about my hopes for Avengers Infinity War was commented on by someone we went on for a paragraph about…well, here, read it for yourself:

guys… everyone just look at this poor filthy ugly DC fanboy… his miserable life’s only aim is to dream for world where people are appreciating DC more than Marvel… not even that… he had dreamed of DC movies winning academys… so he thinks he is living in that world cuz he cant accept the reality… just look at his stupid channel getting 74 subs and got 15 likes from DC fanboys… good job kid… round of applause on ur ugly shitty life… no seriously good job… everyone just give a round of applause… good job…

It’s nothing terrible, compared to the kinds of things discussed in the episode, and I honestly can’t even get very mad at this, since it’s so absurd. The video was about how much I love Marvel movies, and hope they make smart casting decisions so the next batch of Marvel movies can be even better. I said literally nothing bad about Marvel, and DC never even came up. So no, I’m not mad. The reason I’m even talking about all of this is because this, and the episode, really hit me with the reality of how much easier it seems to be to spread hateful content than it is to spread positivity. How trolling around the internet just firing off vitriol at any random target is fast and easy, while engaging with something truly worth wile is slower and more time consuming. My mind is racing with analogies like “it’s easy to destroy, but hard to build” right now, as I try to make this post into something that makes sense.

…so I guess what I want to know is…do we just need to be better at networking and marketing than they do? Do we just have to work harder to get our positive message out there? I know putting it that way is too reductive, but I really don’t know how to express this feeling that I could be doing more to make the internet a more positive place.


Near the end of the episode, the Waypoint crew talks a bit about Adrian Chen’s interview with Ice Posedin so I decided to look it up. Holy shit. I wasn’t familiar with Ice before but Chen does a great job of digging into his life and more broadly exploring the dynamics between streamers and their audiences. The racism, ableism, sexism and general lack of compassion on display from Ice and his community is troubling. Taking a step back to look at places like YouTube and Reddit it is again clear that their ecosystems are designed to reward creators like for their toxicity instead of shunning them. During the 'cast the team went through some of the difficulties there are in de-incentivizing this kind of content. I don’t have any solutions but I keep turning the problem over in my head.

All that being said I’m looking forward to the reading the piece that Chen is writing on this. I want to understand how someone like Ice continues to get sponsorship while acting like a piece of shit and in doing so reaches a point where the toxic community they’ve built now has sway in their real-life relationships with friends, partners, and parents. It is all so fucked up.


Wanted to give a shout out to Patrick for not streaming any more Remothered. I stumbled on the scene they’re talking about by accident in another stream, and it was bad. It’s a shame, because I understand wanting to play a game that’s (intentionally or not) so bad it’s entertaining. Sometimes you get Tommy Wiseau … and sometimes, you just get a fucking transphobe pretending to be deep.

Anyway, a lot of the podcast reminded me of the debates people used to have years ago over shock jocks. None of those debates ever went anywhere, because what you’re pushing up against is both what’s popular in culture at large, and the structural biases that enforce that. If the worst of humanity is the most popular content, then there will never be a real financial incentive to push back against it. (You can see this in how every change Youtube makes hits not the worst content, but literally everybody else.) You can only do the best you can in your own spaces, and let the shitlords be shitty elsewhere.


I’d be interested in the panels opinions on large gaming Youtubers who to the best of my knowledge have largely avoided being shitty and who encourage their audiences to be good people, I’m thinking of Markiplier and JackSepticeye specifically. Then again they also remain almost entirely a-political which in this day and age isnt super great either.


Would you be willing to share what the scene entails? The game certainly interested me as a fan of horror movies and games, but transphobia will definitely be turning me off from the game. I understand if a content warning is needed to describe the scene I’d be open to receiving a PM. I googled around looking for the transphobia but I was unable to find it.