You are exactly correct that Atlus isn’t Japan, nor do I believe that Atlus is Japan. I do, however, know that Atlus is a deeply Japanese company which produces some of the most intrinsically culturally Japanese games on the market. In fact, I’ve heard compelling arguments that the only series more inherently Japanese than Persona is the Yakuza series.
I also believe that there is a moral imperative to respect other cultures, no matter how much you may disagree with their ideas. However, the sole exception might be if a tangible, physical threat is being posed to you personally - I wouldn’t blame a 1918 Armenian having little respect for Turkish culture, for instance.
Japanese video games just don’t pose a threat to Western LGBT+ individuals, though.
Just as I believe it is my moral duty to respect cultures with ideas I find alien, I also feel it is equally important to defend a sense of respect for these other cultures.
And, if you feel differently then that’s just as great - I’d always defend your right to disagree with me just as much as I’d defend my right to speak in favor of my own ideas.
You’re absolutely right that it’s a complex matter which has many more layers to it than what I presented in my initial post - at first I was simply somewhat hesitant to build the wall of text, but clearly my newer posts have flown that right out the window.
I’m aware that on an official level, there technically are laws against it in Japan, but at the end of the day, none of them will change the fact that my Japanese wife is afraid to work in her own home country. To quote her, women suffer less sexism in the most Conservative America than in the most Liberal Japan.
I really like Persona 5 and I believe it does well with it themes, the times hanging out with interesting and complex characters, and finishing a game with something to think about. However, the problems it has with it treatment of some of the female characters, negative stereotyping of queer characters, and lack of both queer and minority group characters keeps it from having a stronger impact. It is worth discussing since it’ll help figure out what it can do better and if Atlus is reading these articles it allow them to better understand where they can improve. Ignoring it will be the worst as it’ll keep them and us in the dark with the status quo being continuing misunderstanding and harm.
Also for the people who think that not what the community wants or isn’t ready, there been too many Yuri and Yaoi fan-art all over twitter so yeah the community does want it and is ready for queer characters.
With regards to western criticism of Japan, it’s actually quite a bit murkier than those bringing up cultural differences tend to believe, since unless you do actual research, it can be hard to tell where those cultural differences end and western influences begin. A lot of people do not get that a surprising amount of what Japan sometimes gets criticized for is due to the latter.
Just as an example, you know how Japan is infamous for its work culture being so bad it actually kills people? Guess where they got that from. Spoiler: It was the U.S. after the war.
I think I see where you’re coming. If you want Japan to improve, we should also improve. There been a lot more dark skin characters in Japanese game and anime probably cause there been getting better in our media.
Hey so I tried typing in Persona 5 Lulu into google and did not get the results I was hoping for. Are they the bartender at the bar where you enhance your devil social link?
Yeah it the bartender who is super nice to you, respects you personal space by not forcing you to cross-dress, and encourage you to interact with people. It the character we need more of and in the main cast, not just a nice NPC.
Lulu definitely complimented the Devil Social Link very well. They were often the voice of reason for Ohya. Definitely wouldn’t have minded having her as a social link in the actual game. Definitely would have preferred them over the Tower social link (the arcade savant). Plus felt like they could have added on to the outsider theme the development team was going for.
If we’re being honest I think there are other marginalized groups that could have been represented in Persona 5 as well. While having some LGBTQ representation in games is always appreciated, maybe having a party member who is handicapped or is Korean would have added to the themes of being an outsider as well. The Japanese are infamous for their reluctance to increase immigration rates even though they are facing a shortage of medical professionals that can take care of their aging population. In addition Korean’s have a history of being discriminated against in Japan even though many were forced to move to Japan to work in forced Labor camps during World War II. Think this could resonate with Western audiences as well since immigration has become a hot button issue in many Western countries. Having to defy those stereotypes and not let your disability/disease define you would have been welcomed themes and I hope it is something that Atlus pursues in future SMT games. Even if it’s not perfect I would rather they try than do nothing at all.
I find the argument that Ann’s sexualization is okay because it’s “her choice” extremely disingenuous. Ignoring the fact that it’s an argument used nearly every time some dude wants to defend sexist character design in games, it’s also just not true? She didn’t choose to do any of those things. She didn’t choose to do anything. She’s not a real person. The writers, character designers, and artists decided they wanted a sexy teenage girl in a revealing outfit and flimsily tried to justify it like they always do.
It’s not “empowering” to draw a teenage girl in extremely revealing outfits and say “oh no it’s cool because she’s choosing to wear them.”
She would be “empowered” by her outfit if she really played along with it and not being embarrassed by it. In her social link she talks about liking the female villain in a hero show and here is kind of the reason her inner self outfit is like that. However, they don’t push it enough to really mean it.
fwiw, I’m pretty sure the lady villain she’s talking about is literally Catwoman.
Additionally, I was under the impression that the Thief outfits were at least partially a part of how they themselves are perceived by the Collective Unconscious. If memory serves, characters remain in their regular clothes until they make enough of a fuss to stand out and attract notice within the Palace or Mementos. Which is to say, part of the reason Ann’s is so heavily sexualized is because of how so many people, including fuckboys like Ryuji, perceive her as being overtly sexual just for existing as an attractive woman.
This, combined with the fact that Ann seems singularly alone in complaining about her thief outfit, suggests that it’s not much of an “empowerment” thing. She never really “owns” the look, at most she just seems to put up with it. Being sexualized like that is just something she endures, both in real life and in the CU. And at least to the point I am in the game, she seems reluctant to ever even address how it makes her feel, nevermind draw strength from it.
I don’t think it’s Catwoman, since she says it’s a villain from an anime and i don’t think there have been any Batman related anime series. Not with Catwoman anyway.
In fact, the way she described the villain, she’s probably talking about Doronjo from Yatterman.
As far as I’m aware, there’s no vocabulary distinction in Japan between western animation and anime. They’re both just anime.
Furthermore, I think I remember Ann mentioning that she travelled a lot when she was younger on account of her parents’ work, which just makes it all the more possible that she could have seen a Batman cartoon somewhere else in the world.
There is actually, they specify when talking about American cartoons or comics.
Besides, Ann mentioned that part of the reason she looks up to this villainess was because she never gives up despite losing to the hero all the time. Which does not work for Catwoman, since she usually wins.
Which again, points to Doronjo and her gang. In fact, that’s the very reason why a lot of fans say they like the Doronbo Gang more than the titular Yatterman.
My apologizes about that. Should have used the word disability as apposed to handicapped. Just took a course (focusing on Race, Gender, Citizenship) last semester with a paraplegic man from Pakistan and i’s weird that it did not come up in conversation. Suppose we are trained to not talk about those things for fear of coming across as rude. Anyhow thanks for calling me out on that.
The “some dude” bit wasn’t referring directly to you, I was more directly referring to, like, basically every other dude I’ve talked to about sexist character designs but I did probably assume you were like them, unfairly. I respect that your perspective is coloured by knowing someone with a situation lot like Ann’s and don’t want to dismiss that. So apologies for that.
I’ve never known someone who was Hafu so I can’t pretend to know EXACTLY what it’s like, but as a biracial woman who had a biracial sister (we’re white/Romani, specifically) I feel like I at least understand… An adjacent experience? I’m trans, and have never presented as female so I don’t have direct exposure to the sexualization aspect, but my sister did deal with that a lot and it sucked. My experience was primarily like. The annoyance of passing as white when you aren’t mostly, and dealing with microaggressions when I did tell people about my heritage.
All this is to say that I don’t really… Buy the idea that the best way to overcome your abuse is to buy in fully to the things you’re being abused for. It works for a lot of people, and that’s great. But the solution to my white-passing isn’t to pretend to be white, the solution to sister being sexually harassed wasn’t for her to “own” her sexuality- that’s not what she wanted at all, she just wanted to be left alone. And obviously like, repressing stuff isn’t good but I feel like a lot of onus is put on people who are subject to harassment to become someone they might not want to be and that kinda sucks.
As for assuming intenof the developers I’ve… Just played a lot of Atlus games. They are always gross about women and it fucking sucks and I have no reason to believe Persona 5 was not a similar situation.
I feel like the middle part of this post might be kind of an irrelevant tangent but fuck it I’m leaving it.
