Waypoint Continues to "Explain" the Lore of Kingdom Hearts, Part 2 of ??


I’m gonna post this comic by Joe Whitt because 358/2 days is coming up:

It’s very important to understanding the characters, I feel, in my heart.


You know, I was thinking that Master Xehanort sounded a little off but I had forgotten all about this.


I haven’t listened yet, are we still able to send in the My Kingdom Hearts letters? Mines just about finished but I still need to do some editing, it got too long.


Listening to the recap at the end of the episode, you guys have a lot of things right.

But you have pretty much everything pre-Birth By Sleep wrong. I’ll try to explain it as basically as possible (some of this is covered in Back Cover, which Natalie calls out but Austin thinks was already covered).

  • You say that in-between the Keyblade War and BBS, the world existed in a post-apocalyptic state with the darkness encroaching, but that is untrue. In the lore of KH, two worlds have existed. The world before the Keyblade War and the world after are two different places. In the pre-War world, the Master of Masters knew the War was coming and that the world would be destroyed, so he recruited six apprentices (Ira, Invi, Aced, Gula, Ava, and Luxu). In the lore, these six are known as the Foretellers. Each was given a specific role in advance of the inevitable end of the world and a copy of the “Book of Prophecies” that tells them what happens in the future. The two most important to know are Luxu and Ava. Luxu’s role was essentially to do nothing and just observe what happens. He is also given a black box that he is told never to open and the audience is unaware what is in it. (correction: Luxu did not receive a Book). With Ava, her role is unique in that she is basically told “hey, when the Keyblade War happens, the world as we know it will end and be taken by darkness” so she was tasked with choosing the most worthy Keyblade wielders to be in her faction that will build the new world (this faction being called the Dandelions). Five of those Dandelions will be chosen as the leaders of the new world and one of them will get a copy of the Book of Prophecies (correction: I had said that they all did, but was mistaken). Everyone else in the new world has no memory of the old world at all. That is why when Xehanort talks about the Keyblade War and everything surrounding it, no one knows what he’s talking about. Because only a select few even remember it happening at all.

  • The Keyblade War happens because all five of the Foretellers have a different approach to trying to prevent the end of the world, and it ends up being a self-fulfilling prophecy that causes them to fight for the light and cause the War.

  • So basically, between the Keyblade War and BBS the world is existing as if the Keyblade War never happened. No one remembers it and the peace is maintained.

  • As an aside and another correction, you guys surmised that no one who is around now was around back when the War happened, and that is also untrue. We still do not know how or why, but there are three people who exist currently in KH that also were around back then. Ventus and Marluxia (known then as Laurium) were two of the five new world leaders, and Larxene (known then as Elrena) was one of the Dandelions.

  • And in case you guys are wondering how the Master of Masters could have known the future, he gives Luxu his Keyblade (which would later become Xehanort’s and is seen in BBS). That Keyblade literally has one of the Master’s eyes in it and he tells Luxu to carry it into the future so that the eye can see the events that happen.

Hopefully you guys see this and that clears up the pre-BBS timeline.


They don’t mention the letters in this recording since it seems they recorded it later the same day as the first one (or maybe so soob after the firsr hadnt been posted yet.before the first was posted). Patrick also hasn’t posted whatever his plan is on the site. So I definitely think they’re still taking kingdom hearts emails.


Serene did a good summary of the early events, but I’m pretty sure they got a few things wrong.

Luxu did not get a Book of Prophecies at all. He just got the keyblade and the box and was told to chill and get apprentices to pass the blade to. Gula was the “special” one in that he got the “Lost Page” that was missing from the books that the other apprentices received and his mission was to locate the “traitor” whose identity we still do not know.

Only one of the Dandelions got a book of prophecy (one name was circled by the MoM). I don’t think we know who is the one that got it though. All five of the leaders got a rulebook though, which had instructions on what they should do in the dream world after the war.

As for the podcast, I thought it was entertaining, though fairly messy. They missed a few things and misunderstood some, but I think other people in this thread have covered all of them. I just hope they read all of these posts before the next podcast.


Im loving these podcast, so much so I am playing through the remaster with my two sons. I really hope Lore Reasons continues on after they finish with Kingdom Hearts, with something other obscure series.


Drakengard/Nier is an obvious choice for a future Lore Reasons. Koudelka/Shadow Hearts is old and not particularly relevant anymore, but could be fun. If they could go through Final Fantasy 13 stuff and help me understand whether l’Cie is an adjective or a noun, I might actually play it.


I always thought that “heart” here was a sort of bowdlerisation of “soul” as a concept, for the Disneyness. Certainly, the “heart” in KH is the metaphysical heart - the seat of emotion - as opposed to the seat of “intellect”, and I tend to think of that being what we consider to be the “western” soul.
(Which is why Nobodies lack emotion - being bodies + minds with no soul - and Heartless lack “intellect and identity” being just (corrupted) souls, with no body or mind. (but they obviously experience emotion - since they strongly desire hearts) ). What KH seems to think of as a “soul” is more like the memories+identity of a person…


Is this… right? It seems like it must have happened because of the Keyblade Graveyard being a place that exists, even if it isn’t well-known.

I’m not sure if the rest of KH is meant to be in the world of the Dandelions or the world of the Five Masters.


The Keyblade War definitely occurred. I think it’s just that everyone has forgotten over time, save the old masters (Eraqus, Xehanort, Yen Sid) and a few others.
This especially seems to be the case since (early KH3 spoilers) KH3 acknowledges the black box given to Luxu, and makes it a plot point. This would mean that the Foretellers would have had to existed, which I don’t believe is the case in the Dandelion world.
That said, I don’t think that we’ll be able to really tell what’s up with the Dandelion world until Union X continues that plotline.


Having played through KH3 I can pretty safely say that the world of the Dandelions is separate from the one that Sora and Co. exist within. I agree with basically everything else. Knowing about the Master of Master’s keyblade, Luxu’s box, and the existence of the Dandelions are important for some moments to land in KH3. Also, just a side note it is important to know that when Riku defeats Replica Riku in Castle Oblivion it is revealed that he has formed a heart that joins with Riku’s. It comes out of left field but Replica Riku and replicas as a concept in general are relatively important to the story of KH3.

EDIT: I actually just realized this. Master Eraqus is an anagram for Square, which is kinda like how Yen Sid is Disney backwards and they are both keyblade masters. This is isn’t really important but I needed to put this useless observation to use somehow.


I haven’t listened to this one yet but I finished Lore Reasons #1 just now. There was a moment about halfway through where I stopped and realized “oh god I’m pausing to rewind the Kingdom Hearts lore show to make sure I’m following.” So I’m hooked. Lore forever. Do FF7 next. Or Myst. (Good Myst deep cut in ep 1.) Or anything really.

I’m kind of disgusted with myself that it doesn’t matter how many podcast series Waypoint runs, I end up loving it and wanting more of them. It’s too many! My life!

Slowly my brain is emptying of everything other than Waypoint 101 games, Kingdom Hearts lore, Genlock opinions, a little bit about video games, and not giving into astonishment.


(Update losing my mind at this phil collins bit and trying to not freak out everyone in the office w/laughing my face off)


I love what the game does with anagramming names.

Also, is it just me or does the Master of Masters seem obviously evil? I just watched the Back cover and I haven’t yet finished KH3.


I did the same thing in the middle of a crowded train. Several times.
Stop being amusing, Waypoint podcasters, damnit!


Lodging a correction only because I think it’s interesting ludonarrative harmony:

At least in the original GBA version of CoM, Riku’s parallel story WAS a separate campaign unlocked after Sora’s, with its own narrative, cutscenes, and final boss. It ran through the same levels, but what really set it apart was that while Sora built his own decks for the card-battling system, Riku had locked decks for each level that the player, now experienced with the system, has to figure out how to use optimally. (He also has a “dark mode” powerup and a new system for dealing with card ties.) His campaign runs much faster because it has fewer cutscenes, introduces new characters, fun finale, etc.

Besides being one of the best implementations of a “second campaign” I’ve played, the gameplay is impressively integrated into the tone of their stories.

* Sora is exploring, growing, and finding his own path with the immense power that’s been given to him. Riku, meanwhile, has set decks and has to do his best with the hand he was dealt.

* Sora meets and makes a lot of friends and summons. Riku, meanwhile, only has Mickey and often has to rely on his own sense of morality, one that is far less pure than Sora’s and difficult to contend with.

Some of this may have been just to mix up the gameplay for a second playthrough, but the effect is that you feel like Sora is forging his own destiny, and Riku is struggling to fit the role he’s been assigned: He can either submit as a puppet to the bad guys or struggle as an antihero. Nearly every difference in the second campaign instills that sense of isolation, confusion, and stoicism. It just… works.

[EDIT: Just heard they already corrected this within the podcast. Whoops. Well, still cool to me.]


Never actually played COM, didn’t have a gameboy. You make me wanna try it.


Its gameplay has issues-- one major issue is that using your most powerful moves eats a card for the rest of a given battle, so longer bosses are frontloaded with action and backloaded with attrition, and levels can go on a bit long-- but I had a good enough time to 100% it as a 10 y/o. That said, it’s not amazingly reviewed, so may want to watch some gameplay on YouTube to see if it’s up your alley.

Side note: The ORIGINAL SPRITE FROM THE GBA VERSION of the final boss is very seriously in my top 5 designs of all time. (I personally don’t think it translated as well to 3D in the remake.)
If you don’t care about spoilers, I encourage EVERYONE to check out this link because jeez it’s good: Final Boss Sprite


i kinda love card games with big ideas that are also maybe not that great. I adore Yu-Gi-Oh! Duelists of the Rose, for instance.